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So let's talk about this.
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This Docker arm thing normal.
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What's your take.
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I think it's a great move on both companies parts.
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I think it's a good move for the community in general arm and the acceleration of IO T and non ex 86
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chipsets especially as it goes to more of infrastructure server roles.
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It has been accelerating tremendously in the last I would say five years.
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You know the oftentimes as as technologists and hobby hobbyists and smart home hackers we we usually
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touch arm in the Raspberry Pi kind of world in the hobby electronics world.
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However one might not know that ARM processors are essentially in a lot of the hardware devices that
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are at the core of network infrastructure wireless infrastructure mobile devices.
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You know every piece of hardware in your car in your in your fridge your washing machine wherever.
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Right.
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And so this announcement kind of opens up the world of dev ops and all the advances in efficiencies
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that the traditional dev ops software development world has been gaining advantages in because of Docker
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and container containers.
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It opens up the the this new hardware world to that.
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And one of the biggest gaps as someone who has done some hardware hacking in the past has worked on
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hardware projects at work doing that loop of development and testing on hardware at the edge has been
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its pi.
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The biggest gap in the market right now and I think this announcement is is kind of twofold one is aimed
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at closing that gap making it easier to develop on those hardware platforms and then also as ARM processors
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are going to the server market making it.
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So just like Docker solves that problem for dev ops it solves that problem going from hardware to be
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able to write code just normal software development code in on the server space.
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Right.
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And there's some joint announcements around eight of us having a dedicated arm instances and AC two
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and I think there's a lot of advantages there.
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And I'll leave I'll leave some space for Mike to comment on it but I've some follow up there as well.
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You basically took it all.
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Jeez.
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I mean we're leaving you with back and reinvent Adobe was announcing the arm easy to instances and everything
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and you just see a dramatic price reduction there too.
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I admit I looked at it like how can I take advantage of these to start saving some money on my servers
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and everything and so now I'm making this much easier and more importantly officially supported means
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for building containers and everything and I'm excited to see where it goes I mean I haven't done a
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lot in the IOC space but I definitely see how now it's going to be much more accessible to be able to
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write in again open up the UPS pipelines and everything like Naren was talking about.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And how we can we can start talking at these i o t conferences and arm conferences and I think there's
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gonna be an uptick honestly of around the hardware side and it's a world where I don't I don't know
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if there's a lot of cross in in between our industries right.
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We have the typical distribute application developers folks that are migrating legacy apps trying to
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figure out the cloud future.
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There's other worlds out there automotive industrial IO T Mobile even the VRA are in game gaming world
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and they're at various stages of this dev ops journey.
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And I think this just opens up that world to to the new way of doing things that the cloud world has
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kind of gone accustomed to Yeah.
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Yeah I think you know us x eighty six peoples which is essentially all the laptops.
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You know if you're on a laptop or a desktop machine you're watching this on an Intel processor most
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likely.
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And we sort of have the spoils of of all the features and all the great software and arm has traditionally
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been a place where it's because the processors were so tiny they're focused on battery and efficiency
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that they always they that they haven't been number one right there hasn't been the place where all
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of that great stuff is.
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But I think I think for me largely due to the smartphone decade that we've had that has really changed
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a lot because ALM has been around a while.
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They're not necessarily new.
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And you know in case you didn't know arm for the audience arm is arm doesn't the company doesn't actually
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make a processor.
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I had to learn this recently.
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They they licensed their licensing and consulting and an expertise company but they don't make the silicon
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themselves which is a really interesting model it's the opposite model of Intel so I was watching yesterday
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after the announcement from Docker I was watching and there's a YouTube video on arm from Azure it's
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actually from Microsoft's a few YouTube around you can probably find that video and it's one of the
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guys that helped build a data centers or is in charge of data centers talking about their data center
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designs.
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And the interesting position for him was it wasn't even about savings in terms of energy or whatever.
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For them it was a matter of vendor choice that they right now.
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If you think about it they're all these data centers in the world.
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They're running next 86 there.
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They basically have two vendor choices you know a M.D. and Intel and that is they're sort of the linchpin
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of their entire company to build to build these data centers.
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So for them ALM allows them to then I think Microsoft was saying they had at least three different chip
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manufacturers that they had partnered with to make ARM chips for their datacenter.
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So now they look at this as like a diversity play of being able to have all the different options in
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case something happens that one vendor or one set of chips is delayed or something that they can move
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something around.
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And for those of us that are on on scripting languages like P2P no J.S. Ruby Perl in those sorts of
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things from my point of view if you're talking about cloud infrastructure that's not French the same
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way on arm that it runs on intel right.
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Nowadays we just kind of do a docker pull on those images and those all just run in fact from my checking
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all the official images I looked at all have arm counterparts in fact let's just take a look at that.
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Let's go look at the No.1 real quick.
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I think what you're kind of pulling up on is that Docker has had the ability to run on ARM processors
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for a little while now.
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I think it's I think Justin was mentioning that just in-car comment is mentioning that it's been like
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couple of years where there have been arm based images this announcement of makes it more production
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ready.
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There's a commitment there from both sides and you know there's still some issues there.
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It's not a first class citizen yet.
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And now it is going to be and there's past the kind of hello world kind of examples you do get some
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gotchas.
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And the other part of this is in my in my view point is when you're talking about these different hardware
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platforms often you're also talking about chips that are communicating to other pieces of hardware that
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might be unique over USP cereal some other interfaces and interconnecting those into containers.
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So can get a little tricky these days and when you're talking about a GP use and several connections
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and hardware level timing and robotics more more work still needs to be done on the darker world to
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be able to support that.
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But this announcement is kind of an opening of hey we're taking this seriously and yes we're going to
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work.
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Keep working on improving how Docker runs on these platforms so it's even easier in the future to develop
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against your custom hardware.
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Yeah.
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I'm excited to see kind of how this folds in with orchestration everything.
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I mean imagine opening up a docker e environment and going to you CPE and centre I want to deploy these
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containers across my C device fleet or whatever so it'll be interesting to see where this evolves where
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this goes in the future.
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Yeah yeah.
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A lot of this works today.
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I mean that's what's the announcement I think someone announced you can tell like you know industry
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analyst analysts aren't engineers usually.
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And so when they're putting titles up against Tech Crunch Docker developers can now build arm containers
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on your desktops.
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That title actually would have been the same title like three years ago you could have done that three
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years ago.
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Nothing has changed.
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I think Dockers basically going to meet their goal is to eventually make it easier.
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You were saying the pass smoother from dev test to prod.
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But if you go into this just look at the node image for example there's this whole list of architectures
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where you can do Docker run node on any of these platforms we're talking old arm 32 bit ARM the latest
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arm V8 32 bit X 86 which is i3 86 PPC which is I don't know was using that anymore and then I think
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s S3 90 X is a mainframe chip.
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So actually funny story When Docker con Copenhagen so a year and a half ago now kind of did a little
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hackathon with a couple of the other captains there and I was playing around with making an alternative
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a swarm visualise and we had it working with both Andy 64 and arm and on the S3 96 and windows and so
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produced one node and that can run on four different architectures.
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And it was kind of fun to say you know this app will run on both arm and IBM mainframe and I've never
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even touched a mainframe in my life right.
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I work on it it's just what I mean really cool.
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What does it mean.
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Yeah yeah.
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This DCP will still work on a mainframe I don't know.
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Yeah yeah I know it's I mean that's I think one of the big goals that I always got out of Docker early
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on was you know not only making it easy to run any app the same way with the same commands but they're
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also making any architecture able to run the same thing with the same command.
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So the goal eventually and it's not all complete like the whole path manifest files and all these different
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things multi arches not all completely smooth that but we're really far I think down the road of you
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being able to build an app it be on multiple processor architectures at the same time it's one code
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base and you store it in one repo on the Internet and you pull it you pull it based on your decision
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so then people think well multi arch why I really care.
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I usually know what architecture I want to use and sort of the example that I give is like you might
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want something like on a no JSF you might want some of that architecture to run in the cloud.
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And up until recently if you want eight of us or Azure you had to run it on x 86 like you did not have
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an arm processor to run it on.
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So if you're going to test and see eye and do all that sort of stuff on your code before you shipped
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it out to maybe your IO T devices you had you didn't have a lot of choices for running it on raw bare
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metal arm stuff.
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Right.
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So it was nice to have all these images and be able to test them and then just basically change the
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from image to a different architecture and then your code is built into a new image that's kind of how
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I was talking about it but now now that we have like eight of us is a one instances.
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So if you weren't if you weren't aware from the Amazons conference the most recent one they NWS announced
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that they have they they're making their own silicon just like Microsoft and they have these A1 instances
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that start with A1 mediums and work their way up.
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And what's crazy is like right out of the box they have 10 gigabit.
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So sixteen dollars a month for a single AMD processor but it's got 10 gigabit networking so all I can
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think about is like if I've got a network bandwidth things like that's where I'm putting it is on and
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it's dramatically reduced in price compared to the six versions too.
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So yeah yeah yeah I think that's that's where a lot of that lies.
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I think there's going to be cost advantages.
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Power consumption advantages bandwidth it's also on a trend overall of you know custom silicon and custom
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hardware especially as we start to go into machine learning A.I..
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A lot of companies are going to start baking their algorithms and making their own hardware in their
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own silicon specialize toward very specific machine learning algorithms spaceship specific type of applications
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and developing against those is typically been a really big challenge to make your own compilers you
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have to make sure that you're developing environments of the same.
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I think these announcements are kind of the first baby steps toward opening up advances in in not just
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you Intel X 86 centric development across the board.
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Yeah yeah it's gonna it's gonna be what I mean ideally a few years from now we'll have the situation
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where we maybe are ready here for a lot of people but for the US normal people it's gonna be this decision
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of what is the let me test on a different architectures and let me see which ones the most energy efficient
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or better or you know cost effective for my performance that needs that I have and I'm just gonna choose
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that and it doesn't.
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It's an interesting world because for the longest time in fact one of the things I wanted to bring up
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about this topic was
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the founder of Linux Linus a couple of months ago when I think it was after the ADA U.S. announcement
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he basically came out and was it was gonna play a video.
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Yeah.
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He was really it was I thought was a very interesting discussion I was having we was basically saying
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just because ALM exists doesn't mean that it's going to be like this major player the bit let's all
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look back at the reason that X 86 became so successful and his argument was around everyone having this
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commodity hardware that was the same processor architecture type as in production so that they could
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just play locally tests locally then run it on a server somewhere and that was the real one of the big
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secrets to the success and that arm doesn't have that yet.
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So when I read this I think that this should be turned around now and there should be a new so much
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that needs to write a blog post that basically says Linus is right and Docker and arm together are going
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to be the bet most likely successful way we're going to solve this problem yeah.
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And I don't I don't know if it's you know the use case of like server side doesn't necessarily talk
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about power consumption or cost.
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You know we kind of.
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Yes to an extent.
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Commodities.
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But once you start going away from servers and you start to interact with devices and the cloud and
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multiple architectures and GP use it that's a different story completely.
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Like Linus is right about a specific area which is kind of commodity software development and commodity
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applications.
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But the minute you start venturing off that farm that that territory it's it gets it's a little bit
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harder and it's not there yet.
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And so that being said though I think Almond is a lot in a lot of places and we touch it every day and
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does that mean that it's a good thing that it's hidden.
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Probably not.
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I mean if it's I mean for every x 86 chip how many arm chips are there you know that are running.
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I don't know.
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Right I'm sure there's a multiplication there are a multiple there.
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Yeah.
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So yeah I forgot how many how many.
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They hadn't announced but something about the billions of how many billions of it was I and I hesitate
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to call because I pride misquote but it was something like from the start of arm as a company till the
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two thousand somewhere they made like 50 billion chips and then the next four years they made 50 billion
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chips so and then the next like three years they made 50 billion chips or something like that.
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And so it's essentially almost I want to say exponential but it looks like an exponential amount of
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chips are made.
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I think that's going to change anytime soon you know.
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And traditionally those chips have been found in hardware devices not necessarily on the server themselves
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but you know what's not a server these days.
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Right.
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Oh right.
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I mean yeah.
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To me it means like if you're going to if you're interested in doing something like let's say you want
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to make a custom you know situation on arm like maybe you're not just a node programmer but you're a
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little a low level programmer like traditionally you'd have to go get you know you have to go get a
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Raspberry Pi and then figure out how to develop an ad or you have to buy an arm laptop and then you
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have to deal with the limitations of that for development.
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So yeah.
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So I've got these like I don't know if you can see that I got these little development boards.
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I don't know.
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I don't think they are.
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Maybe they are.
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I'm not sure.
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But you know there's a full stack server on this on this little thing.
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It's the same thing that's in the Amazon Dash button essentially.
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Okay.
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And it's got you know it's got FTB it's got a web server.
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It's I mean what's not a server.
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You know I made my toaster eventually is going to have a server on it for no reason.
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I mean right.
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It probably already does.
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If you get one with like an LCD panel on it it's probably got a little arm chip just to just to power
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that on their website they say one hundred and thirty billion chips more.
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More than 130 billion.
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There's only seven billion people on the planet right.
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So more than 70 percent of the world's population are using ARM technology sensors to smartphones to
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supercomputers.
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Yeah.
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So I think it's really cool.
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I'm excited how easy it is it's almost so easy that the demos kind of like OK cool I'm running arm so
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you know you're on Tucker desktop.
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So if you're if you're just running or desktop you can run arm code right now you can just either specify
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the platform in your Docker run command or you can just specify the image that is arm based.
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And it just runs and it's using that because of QM you if you're not familiar with that
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cue EMU dot org it's in a processor emulator essentially.
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But think of it like virtualization the same way that it works the same way the virtualization does.
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And it just allows it's been around a while it's not a docker thing Docker just bundles it into Docker
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desktop by default.
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And that's what we've been all talking about.
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So if you go on what's crazy if you go into YouTube right now and you just search like Raspberry Pi
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Docker or armed Docker or something like that you'll find three up to five years worth of videos of
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people demoing how this all stuff all this stuff works.
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So one of that one of the challenges with this announcement yesterday is it's it's here like surprise.
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You've had it for five years.
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It just works like you don't need to wait for the next release.
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You don't need to wait for Dr. Khan.
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What what that announcement to me was really about was what we learned was like Docker e is going to
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come to arm right like there's going to be official doctor support for the arm instead of it just works.
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It'll be well you can actually call us for support with this kind of thing that you know.
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Yeah the developer workflow experience is going to get better hopefully we'll have easier dealing with
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a multiple arch images and all that stuff and news will be announced.
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Dr. Khan next week too I mean a whole new slew of tools and stuff coming.
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Yeah yeah.
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In fact even just if you think about it for a second just Dr. compose and of itself being able to run
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Ducker compose up on my machine and if I'm on macro win as a doctor desktop.
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What that means is I could have one of those service services running containers in there be an arm
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based one and then other ones that are X 86 all in the same network all talking to each other testing
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apps locally on different architecture types seamlessly like it's just it's kind of like what a world
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do we live in kind of thing.
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I think it's cool because it also opens up the world for things like unique kernels which have also
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traditionally been difficult to kind of work with but have a lot of advantages.
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And I'm not a unique kernel expert but this is kind of along that path to getting to some more advanced
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ways of communicating with hardware it's more advanced kernels more secure.
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Right.
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So another thing that isn't really part of the announcement but you know your darker images come with
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the ability to be cryptic graphically signed and a big challenge when you're talking about hardware
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is cryptographic signing what's running on on hardware.
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And and that becomes more and more important as we start to do more and more processing at the edge.
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And it's also the same things that we can do today on servers on a new processor architecture that that
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that might not have those advantages at X 86 have from the dev ops world but now do so before we hear.
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I mean how often do we hear of this these camera systems got hacked and all this kind of all that stuff.
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Yeah.
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I think I think I think it happens more than we realize.
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We hear a lot of news and we're like yeah.
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But I think you know there's a lot of devices in fact.
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What's interesting is to see devices coming out now like the Google Home which specifically markets
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as not having a camera in it so that it can't be hacked so that your privacy is protected by not having
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a camera in your living room whatever.
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I just recently got a Google home and it's essentially a little tablet with a speaker built in that
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runs Android and it has lots of things in it.
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But one thing it doesn't have is a camera because of that that very we've all been trained.
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Now that thing with a sensor Internet access in my house is potentially hackable and you're right a
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docker I mean it to me it's like if the app gets hacked the OS can still replace that container much
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easier than you would have to like flash the firmware on a device to get rid of the hack.
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Right.
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So the whole remediation seems a lot easier than me assuming that they didn't break out of the container
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and all that obviously there's always those risks.
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But.